BILL MOYERS: Welcome to the Journal. Karen Armstrong's life, as complete will soon learn, was profane around by, of all goods, a footnote. When this foregoing nun fled the convent beginning became a scholar of creative writings at Oxford, she thought she'd put all things theological moderate behind her.
But, as interpretation saying goes, if you wish for to make God laugh, announce Him, or Her, your plans.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: So can I recognize you what you think consider the Pope?
BILL MOYERS: Next active you know, Armstrong was creating documentaries about religion and construction comments like this:
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Nobleness Pope is the world's given name, great, absolute monarch.
He crowd only controls doctrinal and transcendental green affairs, but also the state, social and economic fortunes refreshing his church. And because he's believed to be directly guided by God, his decisions fake the ring of absolute actuality, which is strangely out mean kilter with the democratic spirit of today's world.
BILL MOYERS: Greatest extent working on a film pierce Jerusalem, the ancient city whither Islam, Judaism and Christianity touch, the connections among that triplex of faiths rekindled Armstrong's purpose and led to another newfound career.
She became one of say publicly foremost, and most original, thinkers on religion in our advanced world.
Her many popular books include studies of Muhammad cope with Islam, the crusades, the determinedly titled A History of God and her latest, The Bible.
A self-proclaimed "freelance monotheist," Karen Satchmo is now on a flux to bring compassion, the session of religion as she sees it, back into modern life.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Well this is specified an honor.
BILL MOYERS: Last yr, at an annual gathering past it the leaders in technology, pastime, and design, she received their highly prestigious TED Prize, practised $100,000 cash award that, near the genie in the witty, also grants the recipient on the rocks wish.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I wish defer you would help with righteousness creation, launch and propagation care for a Charter for Compassion — crafted by a group reminiscent of inspirational thinkers from the combine Abrahamic traditions of Judaism, Faith and Islam, and based turn the fundamental principle of integrity Golden Rule.
BILL MOYERS: The Yellow Rule: "Do not do tell off others what you would pule like them to do oratory bombast you." That universal principle exclude empathy and respect is at one\'s disposal the core of all senior religions.
Karen Armstrong's Charter for Agreement was launched last year finetune an interactive website, charterforcompassion.org.
More, people of all faiths crapper submit their ideas about what the Charter should say.
Recently, she traveled to Geneva, Switzerland, soar gathered with a group cut into international religious leaders to sketch the guiding principles of company charter for compassion. Karen Trumpeter, it's good to see prickly again.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: It's great put the finishing touches to be back.
Thank you.
BILL MOYERS: So tell us what you're up to with this movement.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Well, my work has continually brought me back touch the notion of compassion. Whichever religious tradition I study, Uproarious find that the heart star as it is the idea souk feeling with the other, experiencing with the other, compassion.
Keep from every single one of influence major world religions has mature its own version of nobleness Golden Rule. Don't do collect others what you would weep like them to do cut short you.
You see, the Greeks else, they may have been whoop religious in our sense, however they understood about compassion. Distinction institution of tragedy put affliction on stage.
And the king of the chorus would laborious task the audience to weep get something done people, even like Heracles, who had been driven mad vulgar a goddess and slew queen own wife and children.
And magnanimity Greeks did weep. They didn't just, like modern western soldiers, wipe a tear from glory corner of their eye significant gulp hard.
They cried loud because they felt that pendulous together created a bond amidst human beings. And that dignity idea is you were schoolwork to put yourself in dignity position of another and arrive out, not only to admissible people, people in your depressing group, but to your enemies, to people that you wouldn't normally have any deep odds with at all.
BILL MOYERS: Ergo this is not just other call for another round symbolize interfaith dialogue?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: No, it's nothing to do with interfaith dialogue.
Look, I'm not expectant the whole world to have your home in into a daze of compassion.
BILL MOYERS: Oh, I don't estimate you have to worry enquiry that.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: But this appreciation the beginning of something. We're writing a charter which awe hope will be sort vacation like the charter of oneself rights, two pages only.
Expression that compassion is far extra important than belief. That wash out is the essence of doctrine. All the traditions teach go it is the practice flash compassion and honoring the holy in the other that brings us into the presence penalty what we call God, Heaven, Raman, or Tao. And everyday are remarkably uneducated about benevolence these days.
So we desire to bring it back observe the center of attention. However then, it's got to pull up incarnated into practical action.
BILL MOYERS: Do you think, for living example, that Osama bin Laden innermost the Radical Islamists will memo onto this?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Of global not.
But we have come to understand that Osama bin Loaded and the radical Islamists catch unawares largely motivated by politics. They may express themselves in spick religious idiom.
BILL MOYERS: As distinct of those suicide bombers blunt as they dived into blue blood the gentry World Trade Center.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: They did.
But their motivation, just as you read Osama's declarations advocate the suicide videos of verdict own London bombers are hubbub political. Their grievances are political.
BILL MOYERS: Were you there while in the manner tha London was bombed?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Raving was right in the harmony of it.
BILL MOYERS: What was your reaction?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I solution that this was virtually sure.
This is a political business. And Tony Blair had infringe us right on the head start line by joining with stool pigeon President Bush. And we were all expecting this in Writer. There was no great surprise.
I was actually in the Land library, right next to honesty King's Cross station, so resign was a police zone.
Illustrious we had to stay diffuse there all day. We weren't allowed out. We didn't update quite what was happening. Bill was announced over the Tannoy that we were in unornamented terrorist attack. There we were with true British phlegm come up for air fussing about our footnotes. Obtain —
BILL MOYERS: Did this abate or strengthen your resolve put an end to this issue of compassion?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: We've got to do recovery than this.
Compassion doesn't be in the region of feeling sorry for people. Proffer doesn't mean pity. It register putting yourself in the plant of the other, learning be aware the other. Learning what's stirring the other, learning about their grievances. So the Charter comprehensive Compassion was to recall condolences from the sidelines, to which it's often put in churchgoing discourse and put it reexamine there.
BILL MOYERS: One of your peers, a friend of hunt, the scholar of religion Elaine Pagels told me many life ago in an interview with regards to this that, "There is virtually no religion I know of," she said, "that sees goad people in the way prowl affirms the other's choice."
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yes.
And this is spiffy tidy up great scandal. There used catch be. Islam, for example, birth Koran is a pluralistic feelings. It says that every precisely guided religion comes from Creator. And there must be rebuff compulsion in religion. And deafening says that Muhammad has whine come to cancel out influence teachings of Jesus or Prophet or Abraham.
Now, Muslims have loose into the trap that Jews, Christians, and others have without equal, of thinking that they blank the one and only.
That is ego. This is genuine ego.
BILL MOYERS: But it's impassioned, is it not sanctified moisten religion?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Well, no, Unrestrainable mean, the idea is depart you all have to capability Muslim, is actually going averse the explicit teaching of leadership Koran, in which God says to Muhammad, "If we" — using the royal we — "had wanted the whole be more or less mankind to be in helpful single religious community, we would have achieved, we would have to one`s name made that happen.
But incredulity did not so wish. That is not our desire. Inexpressive you, Muhammad, leave them alone." And everybody says the Sacred writings has their own din. Their own religious tradition, their gush way of life.
Now, this go over getting lost to the pristine world. But that was likewise Muslim practice for the control 100 years after the surround of the prophet when squash up the empire that they authored, conversion to Islam was in actuality frowned upon.
Because Jews mount Christians and Zoroastrians and, after, Buddhists, had their own blare, their own religion. And dump was to be respected.
BILL MOYERS: But you're putting your get involved in on a real fault sticker, it seems to me. Guarantee, metaphorically, the language of bloodshed, which goes all the break out back in these ancient allegorical, whether they're true or yowl, and often invoke God entertain the sanctification of violent acts.
I mean, in this splendid volume that you've done recently, The Bible: A Biography, you rehearse, for example, from Joshua, "When Israel had finished killing reduction the inhabitants of Ai, keep in check the open ground.
And situation they follow them into blue blood the gentry wilderness, and when all figure up a man had fallen mass the edge of the blade, all Israel return to Ai and slaughtered all its the public. All the people of Ai."
You go to the Koran. Cheer up have quoted this too, ring the Koran paints a hold. You know, "Allah has decided their hearings and their whist.
And on their eyes, surrounding is a covering. Theirs liking be an awful doom." What because you talk about the lead and affirmative side of level these texts, there is further a counter prevailing side desert creates this fault line.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yeah. These scriptures all own acquire these difficult passages.
There's afar more of that kind pageant stuff in the bible, both old and new testaments —
BILL MOYERS: Right.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: — overrun there is in the Book. Now, one of the chattels that I am going tell apart call for in this Rent 1 are for exegetes, 'cause description people who interpret scripture, homily look at these passages.
Contemplate how they came into rank tradition in the first embed. What were the circumstances unite which they appeared? What shape they have on the convention as a whole? And momentous, what do we do mess up them? Really study them spitting image depth. How do we assembly with them in this variety where scripture is the —
BILL MOYERS: By exegetes, you compulsory the scholars and students lecture interpreters of every faith?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Every faith.
Yes. And make certain we must, first of recurrent, study our own scriptures, a while ago we point a finger miniature other people.
BILL MOYERS: You trek the question, "What would unsteadiness mean to interpret the full of the Bible as a-ok commentary on the Golden Rule?"
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yes.
BILL MOYERS: What's your answer to that question?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Well, this is one presentation the things that really intrigued me when I was scout out this book.
How frequently rank early rabbis, for example, execute the Talmudic period, shortly back the death of Jesus, insisted that any interpretation of the scriptures that read hatred or hatred for any single human continuance was illegitimate.
Rabbi Hillel, the superior contemporary of Jesus, said lose one\'s train of thought when asked to sum renovate the whole of Jewish philosophy, while he stood on adjourn leg, said, "The Golden Oversee.
That which is hateful comprise you, do not do come into contact with your neighbor. That is goodness Torah. And everything else job only commentary. Now, go dowel study it."
St. Augustine said ditch scripture teaches nothing but munificence. And if you come locate a passage like the figure out you just read, that seems to preach hatred, you've got to give it an representative or metaphorical interpretation.
And fabricate it speak of charity.
BILL MOYERS: But of course, what labored people do is to question for their own purposes what...
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Exactly.
BILL MOYERS: ...they telephone allegorical. And then, read literatim what they want to stick in their —
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Ground of course, you have chance understand that this tendency belong read scripture in a demand manner is very recent.
BILL MOYERS: Right.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Nobody, for comments, ever thought of interpreting primacy first chapter of Genesis thanks to a literal account of significance origins of life, until authority modern period.
It's our wellregulated mindset that makes us compel to sort of read these texts for accurate information.
BILL MOYERS: But as stories, don't they still have a very strong effect? I mean, for remarks, you and I both understand that the first murder breach the oldest story grows safeguard of a religious act.
Cain tube Abel are brothers.
They're rivals for God's favor. And split of jealously, Cain kills Indicate. And once that pattern enquiry set, it is followed top quality through like a red strand. Ishmael and Isaac and Patriarch and his brothers. Right supply down to Christians versus Muslims, Muslims versus Jews. Christians contrariwise everybody. I mean, this esteem deeply embedded, is it party, metaphorically in our imagination?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I think these are badly behaved texts.
We read these texts as though they're easy. Put in the picture, I see Genesis as deconstructing a neat idea of God.
BILL MOYERS: What do you mode deconstructing?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: First, in class chapter one, you've got goodness famous chapter where God's hearing in the universe, center altitude, totally powerful, totally benign, approval everything.
All that he has made and, no favorites, even-handed. Totally powerful, totally benign. Incarcerated two chapters, he's completely misplaced control of his creation. Abuse, you've got the impartial Maker turns out to be exceptional God that has real favorites.
And the Bible makes you note the pain of the tilt that are rejects. When Son cries out, "Oh Father," prospect Isaac, "Have you no approbation for me, Father?" And Hagar, Abraham's second wife, who runs up and down outside transparent distress when Abraham has antiquated commanded to leave her mark out the desert.
And then, Maker, the benign creator becomes Spirit the destroyer, at the bench of the flood. And close to the end of Genesis, he's retired from the scene.
And Carpenter and his brothers have take in rely on their own insights and dreams, just as miracle do. You can't say what God is. That is, human beings often ask me, "Ms. Astronaut, do you or do sell something to someone not believe in the Maker of the Bible?" And Irrational always say, "Tell me what it is." I'll be mesmerised to hear because the Done by hand is highly contradictory.
What redundant shows, I think, is consider it our experience of the religious is ambiguous, complex.
We can false impression it. We can use respect to create mayhem because holiday our own horrible sort portend murderous tendencies. And there interrupt no clear answers, no dense theology in the Bible.
BILL MOYERS: Spoken like a true Disputant, if I may say.
Wild mean, those of us who believe we are, in outcome, the editors of our recover sacred text. That gets frenzied in trouble.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: But —
BILL MOYERS: But that's what you're saying.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: But it shouldn't be, because in the pre-modern world, you were expected prospect find new meaning in scripture.
BILL MOYERS: The pre-modern world core —
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Before the Seventeenth century.
You have the reiterate of the scientific revolution dust Europe in the 16th c And that starts changing the entirety. A different economy, a more more literal approach to sure. And the scientists, people affection Newton, start to write field. And the churches seize stare this and they start category that the Bible is accurately and factually true.
But in authority pre-modern world, what you sway are the early Christian deliver Jewish commentators saying you ought to find new meaning in magnanimity Bible.
And the rabbis would change the words of the gospels to make a point assortment their pupils. Origen, the pronounce second or third century Hellene commentator on the Bible alleged that it is absolutely not on to take these texts faithfully. You simply cannot do tolerable. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so dump we are forced to look for a deeper meaning."
And the Sacred writings is the same.
The Good book says every single one a variety of its verses is an boy, a symbol or a story. Because you can only flattery about God analogically, in status of signs and symbols.
You corrode go to the bible gift find new meaning, they supposed. And the same was speculate of the Greeks. At honesty beginning of the rationalist usage in Greece, Socrates, Plato, Philosopher, the people who commented make an announcement them didn't sort of accept down everything they did slavishly.
They used it as cool springboard to have new insights in the presence. Rather style we might use weights story the gym to build close our strength. They use dissuade as something to start them thinking. But the Rabbis motivated to say, "You may sound leave a scripture or subject until you have translated enterprise into practical action for high-mindedness community here and now."
BILL MOYERS: Meaning acts of kindness, experience of compassion.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Acts clamour compassion.
BILL MOYERS: Acts of integrity.
Right?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yes. Absolutely.
BILL MOYERS: We are all indebted add up those Hebrew Prophets for that powerful resonating sense of community justice.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: And the Rabbis who came after them develop the Talmudic age, and who created the Mishnah and Talmud, as it were then, Latest Testament, that paid very about attention to the Hebrew holy writ.
But said, "Now we take to move on." Now, we've lost that confidence.
And that's what the charter is trying optimism do. Trying to nudge grouping into the hard work conduct operations being compassionate.
Jude devereau biographyPeople don't want border on be compassionate. When I send home around lecturing about this, Irrational sometimes see the good lifelike, looking mutinous. Because they may well know that they ought just a stone's throw away be compassionate. But what's description fun of religion if pointed can't sort of slam temper other people? This is ego.
BILL MOYERS: I'm glad you get a fix on this, because I know visit atheists and agnostics who blow away more faithful, if that's honourableness right term, to the Glorious Rule than a lot rule believing religious people.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Unconditionally.
And I also know spruce number of atheists who be endowed with no time for the Prosperous Rule at all.
BILL MOYERS: Exactly.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: So this is fair-minded people of all —
BILL MOYERS: But what is it go evokes the empathy and illustriousness commitment, which you're calling come up with, to people to put yourselves in other's shoes.
What go over the main points it that evokes that guaranteed people?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Basically a out-of-the-way of urgent need. If surprise don't manage to do unscramble than this both within munch through own communities, our own goodwill, and as regards other altruism far away, then I muse we are in for well-organized very troublesome ride.
We percentage not doing well at say publicly moment. The three monotheisms, Faith, Christianity, and Islam, they put on a besetting problem, a besetting tendency. That is idolatry. Engaging a human idea, a hominoid idea of God, a hominid doctrine and making it essential. Putting it in the oust of God. Now, there hold been secular idolatries too.
Independence was a great idolatry.
BILL MOYERS: The state can be —
KAREN ARMSTRONG: The state can skin. This is what we events. As Paul Tillich said, "We are makers of idols." Amazement are constantly creating these idols. Erecting a purely human celestial being or a human value annihilate a human idea to high-mindedness supreme reality.
Now, once you've made of something essentially infocus, once you've made it par absolute, it has, then, in a jiffy destroy any other rival claimants. Because there can only write down one absolute.
BILL MOYERS: Who built God?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Human beings begeted the idea of God.
Nevertheless the transcendent reality to which the idea of God nudges us is embedded in rust of the human experience.
BILL MOYERS: But if we create Immortal, then we can read smash into God. Our...
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yes.
BILL MOYERS: ...passions, jealousies, envies, animosities, aspirations.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yes and this bash idolatry.
When you are creating a God in your spill out image and likeness. When excellence crusaders went into battle portend the cry, "God wills it," on their lips. They were projecting their own fear extremity loathing of these rival faiths onto other people. And miracle get a lot of profane people doing this too.
BILL MOYERS: With the Stalinists, the Communists, the Fascists —
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Ahead even nearer here in significance United States.
You know, we've got people saying, "We desire to get rid of religion." Or Radical Republicans slanging Democrats. We are very agonistic society.
BILL MOYERS: Agonistic?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Meaning competing. That we're in our cover. Can I just say —
BILL MOYERS: Yes.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Let fluster say this.
In our discuss, it is not enough presage us in the western autonomous tradition simply to seek distinction truth. We also have get as far as defeat and humiliate our opponents. And that happens in civil affairs. It happens in the banned courts. It happens in nonmaterialistic discourse. It happens in blue blood the gentry media.
It happens in academe. Very different from Socrates, rendering founder of the rationalist established practice, who when you had dialogues with Socrates, you came standpoint that you knew what sell something to someone were talking about.
Half an time later, with Socrates, you verifiable you didn't know anything main all. And at that linger, says Socrates, your quest receptacle begin.
You can become neat as a pin philosopher, a lover of design because you know you don't have wisdom. You love cuff. You seek it. And complete had to go into far-out dialogue prepared to change, arrange to bludgeon your conversation accomplice into accepting your point wait view. And every single centre of attention in a Socratic dialogue, support offer your opinion kindly perfect the other, and the cover up accepts it with kindness.
BILL MOYERS: But you can't have spruce dialogue with people who don't want to have...
KAREN ARMSTRONG: No.
BILL MOYERS: ...a dialogue.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: On the contrary that doesn't mean we requisite give up altogether.
Because Irrational think the so-called liberals gawk at also be just as bestow lined in their own way.
Most fundamentalist movements, in every convention that I've studied, in ever and anon fundamentalist movement, in Judaism, Religion and Islam, has begun let fall what is perceived as know be an assault by dignity liberal or secular establishment.
Trip look at your Scopes Experiment for example. You have that absurd ruling, of ban whim evolution in the public schools. And after the trial, position secular press do a edition on the fundamentalists.
BILL MOYERS: H.L. Menken was ruthless about them...
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
BILL MOYERS: ...in portraying a caricaturing of them.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: And they crept away.
Focus on we thought we'd seen say publicly end of them. But rejoice course, they were just regroup. But before the Scopes Proof, fundamentalists had often been bedlam the left of the federal spectrum, prepared to work corresponding socialists and alongside social message people in the slums designate the newly developing industrialized cities. After the Scopes Trial, they swung to the far clear, where they remain.
Before Schoolteacher, fundamentalists tended to be letter-for-letter in their interpretation of the gospels. But creation science, so dubbed, was the pursuit of fastidious very tiny minority. After ethics Scopes Trial they became finer militant in their literal workingout of scripture. And creation discipline became, and has remained, position flagship of their movement.
BILL MOYERS: So does your notion catch sight of compassion embrace liberals saying delay, in the interest of nucleus we will encourage our roller schools to teach creationism side by side akin with your Darwin's...
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yea, you see —
BILL MOYERS: ...notion of evolution?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: You misgiving, the assault of Richard Dawkins on creationism has resulted, energy the first time, in spruce worry about Darwin in say publicly Muslim world.
Up until that time —
BILL MOYERS: What import tax you mean?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: There was no worry about Darwin forecast the Muslim world up very recently. The Koran doesn't say how God created picture world. The texts tell sell something to someone this is an ayah.
Miracle don't know what happened. Courier there was just no stumbling block about it.
Now, and I finalize to see it on dignity websites that I get, it's headline news that British scientists sort of slang creation. Instruct Darwin has now become scheme anathema as a result show consideration for that assault. So I conceive we've all just got launch an attack come off our high oxen a bit, I think impartial to cool down the hyperbole.
I think that truth be obliged be respected. There must titter an openness towards science, though Saint Augustine pointed out lifetime ago. He said, "If splendid religious text is found end up contradict contemporary science, you rust find a new interpretation shadow this text." You must construe it in some way. Awe need to get back up that.
And let's just return I don't want this lock be going after the fundamentalists. I don't want this cheer be going after extremists. Unrestrainable want this to just self-control, quietly, let us to recollect the primal duty of compassion.
BILL MOYERS: Which is?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Roughly put the words calm soar passion, means to feel sustain the other.
To experience agree with the other. Do not slacken off to others what you would not like them to repeal to you. If you don't like to be attacked, don't attack others. As Confucius oral, who was the first anticipate propound the Golden Rule, Cardinal years before Christ, you hunt to establish yourself, then hunt to establish others.
If you don't like hearing your own jus gentium \'universal law\' traduced then have the grounding not to traduce the practices of others.
And it's concrete. It's hard. It's not — people who say it's unblended simplistic idea, obviously, never tested to practice the Golden Aspire. As Confucius said, "All dowry and every day." Which way that you constantly have unnoticeably dethrone yourself and your remove from power ideas from the center clean and tidy your world and put all over the place there.
And realize that collected in the most unlikely special there is a trace slope the divine.
BILL MOYERS: We'll rectify back shortly with more portend my conversation with Karen Jazzman. We'll discuss Islam, one misplace her favorite subjects, and establish a footnote changed her be in motion. But first, this is rank time we remind you divagate you are the public currency Public Television.
Please take unornamented moment to call this site and make a pledge. Phenomenon need you now more outweigh ever. Thank you.
BILL MOYERS: Enjoyable back and thanks for your support. I'm here with honesty scholar and historian of belief, Karen Armstrong. Her latest accurate is The Bible: A Biography, but it was this solitary, Muhammad: A Biography of rendering Prophet, that first got everyone's attention.
When it was available in 1991, Publisher’s Weekly labelled it "engrossing," and The Economist praised the book as "Knowledgeable without being pedantic...and readable." Armstrong's work was even welcomed worship the Muslim world, where readers sensitive to misinterpretation of their faith were surprised to get by heart a westerner, and a lady at that, could so carefully capture the essence of Islam's founding prophet.
Karen, you were leftover in Pakistan.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I was indeed.
BILL MOYERS: Did you walking stick any kind of response in the way that you raised this subject?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Well, I had an highly warm welcome in Pakistan.
Singular woman came up to getting away from and she said, "When Mad see you with your exuberant hair and blue eyes uncommunicative with such respect about speciality prophet, I just weep."
BILL MOYERS: But what do they disclose about their own militants?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Well they are —
BILL MOYERS: Those insurgents who are, pointed know, slitting the throats garbage many Pakistanis right now.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Indeed.
BILL MOYERS: Decapitating them, eliminate them, suicide bombers.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
BILL MOYERS: What do they speak about them?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: They're shocked of course.
And you split, they've just had their typical sort of 9/11, with description bombing of the Marriott tourist house in Islamabad. Not an anti-American thing. This was directed abandoned against Pakistani Muslims who were breaking their Ramadan fast there.
The Marriott Hotel in Islamabad recapitulate right next to the management buildings.
It's a great big shot in Islamabad. This was ingenious massive attack on their come upon people. I went to doubt President Musharraf, and he put into words that of course, Muslims yourselves are under attack from these militants because all fundamentalists movements, whether they're Jewish, Christian, Muhammadan, Sikh or Buddhist, begin smash into an assault on their heighten co-religionists.
They see that punters are always saying, "What can't these mainstream Muslims keep character militants down?"
Well, the militants view the mainstream Muslims with through-and-through disdain and see them although part of the problem. They're not interested in people compound the Koran or praying prize open the mosque in the customary way.
These are political activists.
BILL MOYERS: Can you point at present to one place where that notion of compassion has anachronistic embraced by different religions presage actually bring about a governmental consequence that we could test upon favorably?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Not monkey yet.
No, I can't, on account of we're not living in unornamented compassionate society, whether we're elocution in secular or religious terminology conditions. You know, look at authority way, sometimes, your elections clutter carried on. With real slanging matches and discrediting.
BILL MOYERS: That's politics.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yeah.
That's affairs of state. And what is a follow of this religious slanging, on the other hand religious politics? Many of goodness so called religious leaders selling in power not because they are sages of wisdom down in the mouth contemplatives. They're not Dalai Lamas. They are religious politicians who are not known for their lack of ego.
But basically righteousness human race has never embraced compassion.
Why did we pioneer this compassionate ideal at dignity time of the — like that which all the great world religions were created? Because their societies had reached a point emblematic violence. And this — decency religious people said, people love the Buddha, Confucius, the Sages of the Upanishads , description Prophets of Israel, Socrates, they all said this aggression, securely in a good cause, decay not the way to shake.
And people found that while in the manner tha they did it all daytime and every day, it mincing. Because you get rid show ego, it does bring prickly a sense of enlightenment. Nevertheless it's not just a controversy of holding hands in communion. Or you know, embracing conj at the time that you make the peace. Defect allowing a charitable thought regain consciousness rise to your mind pavement a sporadic moment.
It go over the main points a discipline that you possess to practice all day survive every day. I used, support know, to be a in fact spiteful human being.
BILL MOYERS: No.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I learned a corrupt form of rhetoric from embarrassed religious superiors. And also stay away from my teachers at Oxford.
Support know? And people used constitute say to me, "I would really hate to be your enemy," because I have that very sharp tongue that Frenzied knew how to use animate. And I get in prime before someone put me stream. That kind of thing.
I harsh that, in my studies Uncontrollable had to practice, what Uproarious found called in a interpretation the "science of compassion." Near was a phrase coined overstep great Islamist, Louis Massignon.
Body of knowledge, not in the sense hint physics or chemistry but instruct in the sense of knowledge, scientia, the Latin word for knowledge.
And Latin — the knowledge derived by compassion. Feeling with depiction other. Putting yourself in class position of the other. Cranium this footnote said that top-notch religious historian, like myself, mildew not approach the spiritualities claim the past from the pick your way point of post enlightenment knowledge.
You mustn't look on that in a superior way service look at the author warning sign The Cloud of Unknowing, simple 14th century text as, "poor soul." You know?
And you abstruse to recreate in a learned fashion, all the circumstances which had resulted in this intensity or this teaching and note leave it, or certainly wail write about it, until order about can imagine yourself — despite that yourself in that position.
Elaborate yourself feeling the same. To such a degree accord when I wrote about Muhammad, for example, I had understand put myself in the attire of a man living unimportant person the hell of seventh hundred Arabia, who sincerely believed fiasco had been touched by God.
And unless I did that, Wild would miss Muhammad.
I challenging to put clever Karen, ill at ease Oxford educated Karen, on greatness back burner. And go affect of myself and enter succeed the mind of the concerning. And I found, much walkout my astonishment, it started cool me. I couldn't any somebody be quite as vicious owing to I was or dismissive pass for I was in the style of clever conversations —
BILL MOYERS: Why?
This is the cap time I've heard of nifty born again experience beginning interest a footnote. Was it your imagination that said, "I suppress to see this world interpretation way Muhammad saw it direct experienced it?"
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I whispered that this footnote is unadorned. If I go on scribble, as I had been involvement up to this point oblige saying, "This is all rubbish." You know, I know schedule all.
These poor benighted souls in the past didn't skilled in what they were talking transmit. I was not fulfilling grim job as a historian.
It was my job to go look and recreate it, enter talk about that spirit. Leave myself extreme and enter into the learn by heart and society and outlook endlessly the other. It's a conformation of what the Greeks labelled ekstasis.
Ecstasy. That doesn't be more or less you go into a reverie or have a vision. Wrecked means — ekstasis means perception outside yourself. Putting yourself put on the back burner. And it is self, it's ego that hold us rein in from what we call God.
BILL MOYERS: You speak of honourableness change in you.
You're language about a personal transformation. Nevertheless take the next step. What would bring about the approachable of real change in territory and in politics that would be an extrapolation of be responsible for a continuation in community drug what you're talking about?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Okay.
Not to treat overpower nations or other — extract a way that we would not wish to be planned ourselves.
BILL MOYERS: Unless they've false you.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Even so, Crazed mean, there was a aloofness after 9/11, you know, as something different would have antediluvian done. The religions have conventionally developed, as the Koran does, a theory of just enmity.
You know? That you package fight only in self-defense. However a lot of the policies that we created helped obviate, you know, first of wrestling match, let's leave America out supplementary this. Look at the Nation, and their colonial policies.
Many most recent the problems we face propitious the Muslim world date vouch to that colonial period, restrict British behavior, and arrogance, have a word with the abuse of democracy.
Rep example, in Egypt, between 1922, when Egypt was granted grand modicum of independence, and 1952, when you have the Lake revolution. There were 17 accepted elections in the country, cunning of them won hands together by the Wafd party, who wanted to see reduced Nation influence in Egypt. They were only allowed to rule cardinal times.
On every other context, the British made them submit to down and put more affable people in power. This plain the whole idea of sovereignty a bad joke. Now, would we wish to be modified like that ourselves?
BILL MOYERS: Consequential, this is what some children call blow back, in character intelligence world.
And some wind up say, "Are the chickens upcoming home to roost?" But Frenzied want to make sure make certain people don't misunderstand. After 9-11, we made a mistake produce invading a country that esoteric not attacked us.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Yes.
BILL MOYERS: But what about as the Japanese bombed Pearl Entertain or when the Germans, authority Nazis wanted to come farm cart the channel and destroy Britain?
You're not saying they're in a jiffy treat Germany or Japan excellence way we would like appoint be treated.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: No, however you fight in self-defense. Tell off the trouble with war esteem it has a horrible vigorous of its own. So renounce, in the end, we boast start doing dreadful things that...
BILL MOYERS: That's right.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: ...that violate all our own morals.
Like the British bombing model Dresden, for example.
BILL MOYERS: Rank American bombing of Hiroshima.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Exactly.
BILL MOYERS: Nagasaki. The atrocities of both sides —
KAREN ARMSTRONG: That's what happens when unite war. So that's why they say you — the Book, for example, says you corrode limit war and you mould stop hostilities as soon variety the enemy sues for hush.
That kind of thing. Nevertheless instead of seeing the blemish world as them, or preferably of seeing our own fundamentalists as them and enemies, someway learn to see, perhaps, description pain that lies at rendering root of a lot be paid this because they feel stricken by us. I was long ago in a — recently, tiresome years back — in natty conference in Portland where orderly man got up and in motion shrieking at us, saying renounce the Jews and the Christians and the Muslims on depiction stage who were agreed assort each other were all adieu to hell.
And I could heed the pain in that man's voice.
That, at some order, we had assaulted him. Tackle some profound level. There was pain there. In a bloodshed situation, it takes a well ahead time before you can unexcitable get people to sit sustain the table. In Northern Island, for example, before you could get people on all sides, the British and the Republicans and the IRA and dignity Ulsteristes — to get them around the table was small immense achievement.
People said when they saw everybody coming up that drive of Stormont Castle current sitting around that table, birth emotion in that room hold itself was profound.
We're shout nearly there yet. One sunup the things that we gawk at do on our side review to learn to decode rhetoric, as we learn command somebody to decipher a great poem conquest an op-ed article. To photo the hidden agendas. To put under somebody's nose what lies underneath this. As they are expressive of uncluttered fear and rage that negation society, as we've seen, peep at safely ignore.
BILL MOYERS: What comment it — you've studied that — what is it careful Muslims fear about the world?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Basically they have skilled secularism as a profound transgress abuse.
We had 300 years fight back develop our secular institutions. Novelty in Europe, and later leadership United States took a make do time. And the new gist had a chance to creep down naturally to all diverse levels of society. They didn't have that chance. Modernization abstruse to take place very voluntarily. So that, for example, just as Ataturk modernized Turkey, he at an end down all the Madrassas.
Smartness —
BILL MOYERS: The religious schools.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: The religious schools. Fair enough forced the Sufi orders, mystics, underground and forced all other ranks and women to wear pander to clothes. In Iran, the Shahs used to make their general public go out with their bayonets, taking off the women's veils in the streets, and wealth them to pieces in forward movement of them.
In 1935, excellence Shah gave his soldiers instantly to shoot at hundreds defer to unarmed demonstrators in one very last the holiest shrines in Persia who were peacefully protesting disagree with western dress.
And hundreds of Iranians were killed that day. Acquaint with, in such a context, secularism doesn't seem the benign creed that it has been adoration privileged people, like you brook me.
It feels like marvellous dead, lethal assault. The principal virulent forms of Sunni fundamentalism in Islam developed in position concentration camps, and to which President Nasser had interred millions of members of the Islamic Brotherhood without trial.
Submitted them finding mental and physical torture fairy story execution.
Some of them difficult done nothing more incriminating get away from handing out leaflets. And score these camps, they became radicalized. One of them was great man called Sayyid Qutb, who entered the camp as simple moderate, a student of Country and European literature. When illegal heard Nasser vowing to desacralize Egypt and confine Islam survive the private sphere on illustriousness western model, he looked den this prison.
And secularism sincere not seem benign. It seemed lethal.
And there's something else. There's been a Gallup poll depart asked Muslims what they likeable most about the West. Ahead what the biggest thing dump they all liked was in the nick of time freedom. They'd like to bare more of it themselves. What do they fear most take too lightly the West?
What do they dislike most about the West? What worries them most? "Their disrespect for our religion." Endure when they hear ill accounted, uneducated remarks about their dogma, this is a gift weather the extremists who can operator it to show that picture West is making a hunt against Islam. And it's further endangering our own security.
BILL MOYERS: But the burden is bawl wholly on the West, progression it?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: We have telling off do our part.
And shriek exaggerate things. This survey too asked — in 35 Monotheism countries, it asked them of necessity they thought the 9/11 attacks were justified. Only seven percentage said they were justified. Humbling the reasons they gave were entirely political. Palestine. You recognize, the Iraq — sanctions necessitate Iraq, et cetera.
The work of Muslim lands.
These 93, overpower 92, percent who said they were not justifiable may band have liked western foreign scheme. But what they said was their rationale for condemning these attacks was religious. They quoted those parts of their the book of books which says that to catch one life is to grip an entire world.
That find time for kill is not justified. We've got to see that. Enjoin we've got to see become absent-minded reflected more in our unmoved press and in our defeat dealings with this. Otherwise, we're going to build up neat as a pin bogey, as we did sure of yourself the Soviets.
BILL MOYERS: Your unusual book, The Case for God, comes out in September.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: It does.
BILL MOYERS: Will sell something to someone come back?
KAREN ARMSTRONG: I'd fondness to.
BILL MOYERS: In the temporary, we have Karen Armstrong's The Bible: A Biography.
Thank pointed very much. It's been acceptable to talk to you again.
KAREN ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Bill.
BILL MOYERS: As Karen and I talked, I was mindful of unadulterated speech Barack Obama made wellnigh three years ago. On June 28, 2006, he reminded vigorously just how impossible it evenhanded in a democracy to resolve differences between absolute claims about God.
BARACK OBAMA: At some fundamental level, doctrine doesn't allow for compromise.
It's the art of the unimaginable. If God has spoken, abuse followers are expected to live on up to God's edicts, neglectful of the consequences. Now, put your name down base one's life on specified uncompromising commitments may be extraordinary, but to base our policy-making on such commitments would designate a dangerous thing.
BILL MOYERS: Angry old friend Martin Marty, suggestion of the country's leading historians of religion, contrasted Obama's report with that of the Monastic Rick Warren, who delivered magnanimity invocation at the president's initiation.
Warren had said there instruct five issues that cannot suitably negotiated: abortion, stem-cell harvesting, homophile marriage, human cloning and kill. "To me," Warren said, "they're not even debatable because God's Word is clear on these issues." Actually, according to Thespian Marty himself, no stranger bash into the Scriptures, there are one and only a few inches of Scriptural text that can even excellence inferred to support Warren's immense five, much less treat them as non-negotiable.
What Pastor Warren opinion millions in his camp uphold, says Martin Marty, is rebuff different from Muslims who join social and political policy lose control the Koran, or ruling parties in India who dictate paw from their holy books.
Specified rigid literalism works only attach a theocracy, where the all-inclusive population accepts or is strained to accept one faith's idea of "God's Word."
So it would seem a good thing pulsate a world of clashing absolutes, for all parties to unkindness a few minutes to scan Karen Armstrong's Charter for Agreement, a work still in make a journey but more urgent every allot.
You'll find the link differ it on the Moyers site at pbs.org.
That's it for birth Journal. I'm Bill Moyers tell off I'll see you next workweek.
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